I have been asked to post this double-header by @jacobgadikian as it is an important issue to be discussed and is possibly easier to compare methods on one post than having a discussion take place in parallel across two or more articles.
This does include my own edits, in the hope of making both positions as clear as possible, so if any further amendments are needed, or I have accidentally mis-represented a position, then it shall be edited as soon as possible.
To make further discussions easier, I have just labelled them as Plan R and Plan J. So, without further rambling, here are the current ideas.
Plan R
Firstly, this plan is the first of a 3-stage process leading to the development of a fully-automated algorithm that aims to reduce rewards to a range of posters and voters who abuse the reward system. Some of this work has been done but much of it involves on-going research to develop metrics that are both sensitive and appropriate to mitigating such behaviour.
I have seen this work, albeit with a final human check for false signals, but if the effect is gradual instead of binary, this gives users the chance to change their behaviour and hence avoid even the appearance of being bad actors.
On a more general note, we really need to move away from the idea that there is “one reward curve”. That idea has not worked at all and will never work, the reason being that one formula will have an obvious optimisation strategy and it is not at all clear that such a strategy is good for the whole economy. We should look forward to possibly two or three different curves that affect user behaviour in different ways. If designed properly, then we can find an optimal user strategy that is in line with the growth of a good economy.
We already have such a mixture of curves within the 5-minute “reverse-auction” but it is a mere microcosm of the whole system. However, it is proof that two curves are better than one! (I shall write about this in the near future but don’t wish to go off on a long tangent.)
Enough of the preamble, so what is Plan R? Given that Blurt is an open system, with pseudo-anonymous accounts and a command line interface (CLI), any abuse mitigation has to be done at the blockchain level and not within the front-ends or apps that most users engage with. The key aim is to make abuse less and less profitable and hence have a diminishing effect on the whole Blurt ecosystem. By the necessity of time, this is a human-led system with algorithmic assistance.
The fundamental aim is to use the existing Warden roles to trigger a vote from a dedicated account, such as @abusecontrol, so that the rewards algorithm picks this up and decreases that poster’s rewards. This can quite easily be done by inserting some extra lines at the point at which the claims of a post are calculated from the total rshares from voters. In general, this is also the point where any future “curves” can be added.
Wardens are already heavily involved in finding bad actors, for both content-abuse and vote-rings, so it strikes me that they are in the best position to carry on such work. Also, having some automated assistance will relieve them of some of the repetitive work of finding the same accounts every day.
One or more Wardens would have access to the @abusecontrol account, which can be used both manually and as an auto-voter. This effectively means that a “blacklist” is created within that auto-voter so that persistent abusers will have their rewards reduced for every post. The voter will also be able to scan both posts and comments. The blockchain then just needs to check whether that abuse-account has voted on a post and adjust the rewards accordingly.
The actual level of reward-reduction is something up for discussion. The principle here is that rewards should be reduced to a level whereby the user can earn more by being a good actor than by being a bad actor. I therefore suggest a reduction of 60%, so they would still get 40% of their ill-gotten gains! I have had some discussions with @megadrive about this and there are possible refinements, such as a reduction to even 0% for persistent abusers. Such numbers can be decided as and when this becomes coded. I think the aim is to not necessarily drive stakeholders away but rather to change their behaviour.
There are further refinements needed so that the automated trigger makes intelligent votes, but these are issues outside the blockchain itself. Just to repeat, this human-triggered semi-automated system is designed to be fairly quick to implement, after which I can work on designing a fully-automated system that works within the blockchain.
Plan J
This proposal is for the defense of the reward pool. I believe that such a defence should be the responsibility of Witnesses.
The idea here is that accounts that abuse the reward pool shall have their post rewards disabled - somewhat like the “Decline Payout” option currently available in the post creation Advanced Settings, but enforced by the blockchain.
The witnesses shall keep their own blacklist of such abusers and an algorithm written so that a username is added to a master blacklist once 2/3rds of witnesses include it in their personal list.
Note that this targets the posters rather than the voters, so that the stakeholders that actually create the rewards are able to change their behaviour. The curation rewards are now relatively high so that a large stake can earn significant BLURT by voting on better content rather than aiming to accumulate both author and curation rewards from what can only be described as shit-posts.
The broader community of Blurters is obviously sick of seeing garbage posts pumped into Trending by a circle-jerking clique of stakeholders. I am not suggesting the ability to remove the right to vote, and hence earn, but I do want to see the right to abuse terminated. I thus think it may even be possible to include the wider community in this process, with a direct line to be able to add a username to a warning-list so that Wardens and Witnesses can be alerted more quickly.
Placing the onus on Witnesses gives a clear indication that any abuse of the economy will not be tolerated at both social and management levels. In the Blurt DPOS system, Witnesses have both network and governance roles. I appreciate this will mean some extra work, but it is also entirely possible to form witness-teams so that one individual may focus on the network while another is assigned governance responsibilities. The potential issue of Witnesses themselves abusing this responsibility can be solved by voting for better Witnesses.
I believe that once in place, the social network effect will deter users from bad behaviour. I also believe that the list is easier to maintain than people might think. I accept there may be refinements to the process of blacklisting, but what I want to see is the social expectation of quality and a mechanism for enforcing quality.
So, let's open this to further discussion...
PS. I was going to add @jacobgadikian as a beneficiary but see this isn't available - looks like another topic for discussion!
Hi @rycharde, ended up here from @megadrive's post... this is definitely all an important discussion!
I don't know if you know Asher (@abh12345) over on Hive? He uses a lot of checks and balances to weed out and trace "crap" when creating his weekly Engagement League rankings... he might be a good person to brainstorm with, if he's willing. His query set — developed over 2+ years — reduces the value of all manner of self-voting, copy-pasta, narrow band voting to create a very true ranking system. There might be something useful there to adopt on Blurt.
One of the things I keep thinking about is "flags." I run several groups on Facebook and group members can "flag" dodgy posts... then I get a message that a post has been flagged, and I can review it... the original use of flags.
This may get into getting too complicated, but way back when I worked designing skills tests for large organizations to test their employees' aptitude for certain areas. We utilized computer adaptive learning, where each person's test was truly individualized because the next action by the system was contingent on the user's previous activity. I don't know if a sort of AI-like system could be coded in at the chain level where if the system detects plagiarism, your rewards decline 10% on this AND your next post... and if you plagiarize again, you lose another 10%, but if you create something original, you get your 10% back. Of course, coming up with the root data set and permutations is a HUGE endeavor and possibly beyond the scope of Blurt... but this was stuff we were doing in the mid-00's.
Just thinking out loud...
Hi, your last paragraph is what I designed some 2 or 3 years ago for Steem - gained no traction at the time, but I haven't forgotten. It was a draft v1, but yes, some sort of individual parameters that then "interact" when users interact, which isn't so hard as the only real action is a vote. There is though, as you know, some computational overhead, but it can be done... IMO!
If you have experience in this area, maybe we should talk on discord. I'm no coder, just an idealog (lol), so may end up wasting precious time building something that may only take an hour.
I think even the old flag icon has gone from pages, and yes, some features that express an opinion other than a financial vote would be good.
I know Asher's work. Possibly something the newly-forming curation management team could look at. Sounds grandiose, but who curates the curators? we do!
Thanks a lot for your thoughts!
남용이란 주어진 권리나 권한을 정해진 규정이나 기준을 원래의 목적이나 범위에서 벗어나 함부로 사용하는 것이라 알고 있습니다.
그렇다면 블록체인에서 정해진 률 외에 할 수 있는 것이 있던가를 거꾸로 묻고 싶습니다. 특히 블러트에서 말입니다.
누가 어떻게 주어진 권리나 규정을 어겨가면서 이익을 취해갔거나 블러트 블록체인의 위해를 가했다고 생각하십니까? 그런 대단한 재주가 있는 사람이 있습니까? 있다면 블록체인이라는 것을 거부하고 기존 관념 속에 남아있는 중앙 집권식 통제를 하려는 일부의 사람들의 의한 발상에서 비롯된다고 나는 생각합니다.
블록체인은 주어진 룰 외에는 그 어느 간섭도 용인될 수 없으며 용인되어서는 안 되는 것으로 알고 있으며 최대한의 자유로운 활동이 보장되어야 하고 범죄가 아닌 이상 어떤 형태의 활동도 보장되어야 한다고 생각합니다. 그렇게 하여야 많은 유저들이 마음 놓고 활동하고 아이디어가 접목되어 융복합 효능을 만들어 낼 수 있고 그로 인하여 유저 수도 증가하고 더불어 자본의 유입도 원활하게 되어 블러트의 가치는 올라간다고 생각합니다.
과거 스팀에서 모든 권한을 틀어쥐고 자신들의 이익에 반하는 조짐이 보이면 무조건 때려잡던 그래서 스팀을 이지경으로 만들어 놓은 그런 전철을 밟지 않으려면 규제 일변도의 경직된 생각은 버려야 합니다. 뭐가 그리 두려운가요? 아무리 탁월한 재주가 있어도 자기의 욕심을 채우는 것은 자기의 소유한 블러트 파워의 최대치 이상은 가져갈 수 없습니다.
투자를 많이 하는 유저일수록 이익 비율은 감소하게 되어있습니다. 과한 욕심을 낸다고 생각되는 유저도 자기 밥그릇에 담아 갈 수 있는 한계가 있습니다. 투자를 남들보다 더해서 밥그릇이 큰 거 외에 아무것도 없습니다. 욕심쟁이로 보일지 몰라도 다시 자세히 보면 그들은 욕심쟁이가 아니라 투자자들입니다. 그들이 질타의 대상이 되어서는 안 됩니다.
진정 블러트를 위한다면 좋은 글 논란에 불을 지피는 게 아니라 제재를 논할 시간에 모법적으로 활동을 잘하는 유저들에게 어떻게 하면 상을 줄 것인가를 논의하는 게 맞다고 생각합니다. 그렇게 되면 각자 알아서 잘하려 할 것이고 많은 아이디어를 들고 나올 수 있다고 봅니다.
심하게 말하면 어떻게 규제를 할 것인가 하는 이런 것 자체가 남용이라는 생각입니다.
나는 사실 이 말 한마디만 하고 싶었는데 길어졌습니다.
“그 어떤 선이라 해도 악을 징벌하는데 이용되면 그 순간부터 선은 더 이상 선이 아니다.” 징벌 대상이라고 생각한 그 악이나 징벌을 하는 선이나 똑같이 악의 굴레만 키우는 악이라고 생각합니다.
I think we agree here, at least my speaking personally, that a more subtle use of the various "rewarding curves" would be better, so that everyone is subject to the same rules. There is already such an example in the early-voting so-called reverse-auction, where two curves work together to create a dynamic optimisation. Just to add that this is still being worked on but takes time to design suitable formulas and the best way to encode them. Before then, there is another piece of the economic puzzle I am working on, and I wish to see all the cumulative effects before making more changes.
This may not help in the immediate future, but remains in the pipeline for the HF after the next one.
Also to add that Steem, and all forks since, has never resolved the inherent conflict between quality and value - content-quality and financial-value. These co-exist yet are very rarely commensurate, and the quality-metric in the system is the reward system. I would make another suggestion and somehow split those two different spheres. I'm not absolutely sure how, but separating the "most popular" from the "most valuable' could appease both sides.
아무리 훌륭한 설계라 해도 자연스러움을 역행하는 설계는 자연스러움보다 훌륭하고 위대한것은 없습니다.
작은 샘이 실개천을 흘러 내가 되고 강물이 되어 바다에 이르는 여정은 자연의 조화입니다. 어느 지역에 비가 내려 흙탕물이 되었다 해서 그것을 거부하는 개천과 강은 못보았고 그런강이 설령 있다면 결코 큰 강을 만들수없을것이며 바다에 다다르기전에 말라 버릴것입니다. 말그대로 죽어버린 강이 될것입니다. 제제를 가하기 위한 개발이 아니라 있는 규제 마저도 풀어도 되는 개발이 필요한 이유입니다. 개발 능력이 있다면 이런저런 이유로 구 스팀에서 행하던 규제 일변도의 정책 입안이 아닌 더욱 마음껏 활개를 치며 활동할수있는 장을 만들어 주기 바랍니다. 그러기 위해서는 스팀에서 이런저런 이유로 시행하지 못한 '스마트 컨트랙트(Smart Contract)'를 블러트에서 빨리 시현해보이고 실용 접목하는것이 블러트에 대한 블러트 유저들에 대한 충성이라고 생각합니다.
What is "natural"?
It is all designed.
여기서 자연이란 간섭을 최대한 줄이는 것을 이야기 합니다. 자생력을 가지려면 스스로 저절로 이루어져야 합니다.
I think we return to agreement here. My vision of an economy is like a landscape, maybe more like electromagnetic fields, and the user navigates through that landscape. It is the same landscape for all, but some may walk while others drive cars - they are all subject to the same physics.
It is not easy designing a universe that does not implode.
Maybe we need two universes.
Whether I can design that, and whether it can be implemented, is a work in progress.
Congratulations, your post has been curated by @r2cornell-curate.
Also, find us on Discord (https://discord.gg/BAn2amn)
https://discord.gg/BAn2amn
The conversation has now been expanded to this post: https://blurt.world/witness/@megadrive/proposal-issuing-a-red-card-to-reward-abuse
Thanks @rycharde, have a look at my post, I propose that witnesses remain focussed on dev work and running effective servers as well as ambassadorship. Not every witness is cut out to evaluate posts, there are certain types of people that thrive on abuse hunting but often they of of different profile to developers.
So i proposed a set of rewards pool moderators/validators who also earn payment for their service from inflation and get voted into service via stake-weighted voting much like witnesses do.
Just want to clarify, both Plan R & J will only affect the pending rewards for both Poster & Curator?
The visibility of the post & reputation of the author/voter remains unaffected?
It seems like a more lenient version of "downvote", please correct me if I get it wrong.
The complaints about visibility relate to the various Trending and Hot pages - a post with zero rewards will thus not appear on any such list. There is no Rep score in Blurt.
What would you suggest?
Upon reading Megadrive's post, I realize that "Blockchain Moderators" + @abusecontrol could be a good combo. Simple & Efficient
For as long, Blockchain Moderators are assigned through consensus (by the Community) then the process will be as decentralized as it could be.
I, personally feel it is a great opportunity for a slightly different governance model for the Mods than pure POS - we've seen the cracks and seen what happens with collusion. And that such governance includes those issues you mention of transparency and a clear protocol that manages membership, decision-making and appeals.
I chooose...BOTH!
If I do come across a post that is obviously plagiarized, what should I do with it? Is there anyone I can report it to?
Please go to the Blurt Discord server - link is in the top-right drop-down menu.
:-)