What I like and dislike concerning Blurt.

in blurt •  4 years ago  (edited)

Hello, I have been asked several times now about my opinion concerning Blurt, and just a few hours ago I noticed that also @jacobgadikian, one of the Blurt founders, had written a comment under one of my STEEM posts in which he indicated interest in my point of view.

So how to start? Maybe with something positive: I really like the attitude of the founders and developers of Blurt to ask stake holders and interested users about their opinions! That's nothing I experienced really often (euphemistically worded) during my nearly four years on STEEM! Of course that doesn't mean they always have to agree or follow every given advice - in the end they are responsible and have to meet the important decisions themselves -, but at least they listen.

Apart from that, in the following I would like to discuss what I like and dislike on Blurt. It may well happen that not every information I got about Burt is correct, so please correct me in case you spot any mistakes!

What I like:


  • For me it seems the small transaction fee per byte is a clever solution to curb spam.

  • If I am correct, it is discussed to increase author reward and reduce curation reward (respectively let the author choose the percentages for both).
    As anyway on STEEM, and especially HIVE, in most cases upvoting happens automatically (and thus doesn't deserve to be called 'curation', a term which includes the work of reading and evaluating), I see no reason to reward this kind of 'easy work' that much. Here I wrote more about why in my opinion 'real' curation nearly doesn't take place on HIVE and STEEM.
    What is needed are authors who make the effort of creating interesting, creative quality content!

  • It seems that software development and improvement happens rather fast, and many ideas of the community are considered to be implemented.

  • I tend to think that it was a good decision to abstain from having a BBD, not to unnecessarily complicate things.

What I dislike:


  • I understand why the 'Blurt people' are against downvoting: in the past there was much drama about crazy whales flagging smaller users because of disagreement on opinion or personal reasons.

    However, without flags there won't be any means to discourage plagiarizing, farming, self- and circle-voting.
    I know that for example @birdinc wrote in Discord: "We want people voting for themselves on Zapata. I never understood why this behavior was so discouraged on Steem."
    That was concerning Zapata, but the visions of these two blockchains appear to be rather similar.

    In my opinion the problem with self-voting, circle-voting and farming is: if everybody upvotes themselves (respectively their alt accounts / 'circle-friends') anyway, then there is no incentive to a) create quality content, and b) interact with other users, both things which are essential for the attractivity of a community for potential new users/investors.

    Just look at the trending page, at 'German trending' or at what I do myself, and you will see that the absence of flags leads to (short term) egoistic behaviour which in the long run destroys the value of the platform.

    Even if you disagree with the above, there still is the inability to combat plagiarism and other abuse without flags.

    My idea is to have flags but at the same time kind of a user elected committee to curb personal flag wars. You may read more here and here.

    In case you don't like the idea of the committee, just find an alternative (for example that only the elected top witnesses were allowed to flag etc.)!

    If you insist not to have flags, then create incentives to upvote as many different users as possible. I had for example the idea of 'diminishing returns' when upvoting the same accounts again and again. In that case however you would need to find a way to handle users with lots of accounts.
    Apart from that you could think about rewarding users with a high "Voting CSI" value in SteemWorld (or something similar).

  • Tell me if I am wrong, but it seems one cannot see one's old STEEM posts in Blurt. For me my old articles are precious collections of my own thoughts and ideas which I wouldn't want to miss in case I would switch the blockchain!

  • In general it concerns me if an already rather small crypto community gets split in more and more little fractions ... I wonder how this will end ... and with limited available time it won't be easy for me at all to post in several different social networks.

What I suggest:


  • In my eyes the short curation window of only five minutes is very bad for real curators. It leads to a behaviour that users don't read content anymore but prefer to upvote these authors automatically whose posts show a high probabiltiy to receive many big upvotes.
    There should be either no or a very large curation window (of a few days?), so that it's not so easy to spot the moment of maximal curation reward. I see no reason why it should be more profitable to upvote fast than slow. I wonder why so many people still buy the myth of the "early manual curator who discovers quality content". :-)
    I wrote more about this here and here.

  • There is an ongoing discussion about the rewards curve.
    I am in favour of the convergent linear curve because it discourages self-voting. (Some time ago I wrote an article about that myself.)
    A linear rewards curve combined with no flags is a real self-vote paradise (but I wonder what this would mean for the future value of the Blurt token ...).

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE BLURT!
Sort Order:  
  ·  4 years ago  ·  

I wish the initiators of Blurt would go into detail about the article of @jaki01. The criticism he is expressing at this point includes all the points that made the Steem a laughing stock for dishonest investors and farmers.

Jaki01 points out that on the Hive some downvote committees with high stakes punishes self-service by investors and other dishonest coin robbers. This sounds to me like an important step in the right direction. It is therefore also very important to me to finally find effective solutions to the really annoying issue of dishonest farmers. This thing was one of the main reasons why so many bloggers said goodbye to the Steem again. Those who had actually posted qualitatively valuable statements simply couldn't come to terms with the obvious injustice.

Would you be interested in doing some kind of like 30-60 minute video discussion of these concepts?

kind of so that we can explore them a little bit further but also so that that conversation can spread through the community as well. some of your ideas are a little bit tough to implement in code but I like them anyway a lot. For example the diminishing returns idea.

I mean it's either that or you give up on the reward pool and it seems like you'd be a great person to have this conversation with, if you're willing to.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Thanks a lot for the offer!

For now I have to decline, because I feel being busy with so many things in life, and also fear that my spoken English is not 'stable' enough for such a discussion which would require fast but at the same time satisfying and thoughtful answers. When speaking in English, I always need time to think and fomulate ... so that concerning complicated matters I really prefer to write.
(Apart from that, in general I prefer to stay in the background and don't feel comfortable to show off in public.)

Anyway, if you read my links you know my ideas well enough to build your own opinion, and I am always here to discuss them on the blockchain if you wish.

Hey, no worries :).

Thanks for your idea.

Looking into the "5 minute window" thing.....

Hey thank you so much for taking the time to write such detailed commentary.

It seems like for now, on blurt, we are going to keep with convergent linear, because it seems to be fixing itself over time.

As for your Steem content on Blurt, let me explain how blurt came to be vs Hive:

Hive
steem ----hive fork----> Hive (chain of blocks continues unbroken)

Blurt
steem -----export from block 43,526,969----> snapshot.json with 1.3 million account balances ------> Genesis state of Blurt Blockchain

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

I see self-voting more as staking as it would be compared to on other top blockchains.

UI's don't have to show Trending exactly as the blockchain sees it. They can get creative to feature 'good' content.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Other blockchains aren't connected to social media sites, don't have content. The problem is that users won't make the effort to seek for interesting content if it is more easy to upvote themselves and 'friends'/alt accounts automatically? There is less incentive to create 'quality content' if nobody values it and seeks for it.

If then I look from outside at STEEM/HIVE/Blurt and see nothing but highly rewarded Korean mini posts or also a self-voting @jaki01, then why should I consider to join?

What can you do against plagiarism on the platform without flags?

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Not only are the masses of almost worthless Mini Posts, but they also violate the requirement for referencing foreign content in rows. Nobody seems to be bothered by this. Neither by the unreasonable rewards for banalities, nor by the copyright violations. Nobody seems to be bothered by the fact that by saving them on the blockchain, series of licence-free images are declared as own products by omitting a source reference.

You know and this just provides me with even more evidence than in the end when you're actually going to want is highly exclusive community.

Might not be good that it's easy to join. Something like anybody can read but in order to write you need to blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Or something like the community is totally private. In order to read, you pay the community a tribute. In order to write, you contribute to engaging conversations with community members and......

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Nobody likes any exclusive community except the people thinking they are the top of human being. Any blah is welcome on a blockchain if there is any community thought behind a posting, the wish for communication. You know exactly that there are gangs practisicing pure farming on your blockchain. Making maximal profit should not be the reason for a blogs posting. It always should be the wish of spreading a message or initiate a conversation.

By the way, these gangs make sure that potential bloggers as well as serious investors turn away from such a block chain in disgust. We could clearly see that over the four years on the Steem. So there is no point in belittling the problem or even trying to denigrate those who address the problem as arrogant separatists. Better should think about, how to avoid farming gangs.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Exclusivity, yes.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

I agree that in case a short 'bla blah post' leads to a lively discussion in the comment section, it has served the community/platform more than a long, elaborated article with no comments.

However, most trending posts (correct me if wrong) show no or very little user engagement in the comment area, which in my eyes is a hint that in many cases their main purpose is vote accumulation/farming ...

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Someone is basically using trending for staking now which is great because they could just dump the 1+ million Blurt but they are holding it.

I never really looked at trending much, it's better to cultivate your own feed.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Someone is basically using trending for staking now which is great ...

Lol, I 'stake' a lot here, too, but I disagree that it's beneficial for a platform in the long run, if such behaviour is profitable: if big accounts just 'stake' (self- or circle vote), there is no reason at all for other, smaller users to join such a self-centered microcosm - and as we all know: the value of a (social) network is measured among others by the number of its users.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Nobody likes any exclusive community except the people thinking they are the top of human being. Any blah is welcome on a blockchain if there is any community thought behind a posting, the wish for communication. You know exactly that there are gangs practisicing pure farming on your blockchain. Making maximal profit should not be the reason for a blogs posting. It always should be the wish of spreading a message or initiate a conversation.

By the way, these gangs make sure that potential bloggers as well as serious investors turn away from such a block chain in disgust. We could clearly see that over the four years on the Steem. So there is no point in belittling the problem or even trying to denigrate those who address the problem as arrogant separatists. You better should think about, how to avoid farming gangs.

Okay so what can you do against plagiarism on the platform without flags?

In my mind it's pretty simple:

one you allow people to report content in the front end.

Two honestly I don't think that plagiarism has ever been that big of a deal because authentic content has its own light its own feeling its own air it's own everything and so it feels different and it naturally earns greater rewards.

Of course, I may be proven wrong. Let us find out.

  ·  4 years ago  ·   (edited)

I see no reason why it should be more profitable to upvote fast than slow.

Bravo! I can't see one either. And it is utterly unfair to users in different time zones. That said, I have never wasted a thought on this. If I like it, I upvote it, whenever I see it.

upvote as many different users as possible

Disagree. There is a very limited supply of posts worth upvoting, and those that are should be favored on an ongoing basis by their fans. Also, some users have narrow interests and don't want to bother with what is off topic for them.

I very much like the idea of not having the negativity of flags, but I agree there should be a mechanism to punish or remove those who abuse the system.

The committee sounds like a reasonably fair idea, but that comes with its own set of problems. Considering how many overwrought social justice warriors are out there nowadays, how do we guarantee free speech for political content? Especially the ones who see hate behind every utterance love to get themselves on kangaroo court committees and censor the hell out of others!

Perhaps a committee should decide who is to stand in the pillory, so to speak, but the people decide the punishment - with a public vote based on "one man / one vote" and no regards to stake. A place of public shaming that opens the perceived abuser to real jeopardy, but not necessarily to harsher punishment than the accusation itself.

The commitee must present proof in 500 words or less. The accused gets to refute the accusation, also in 500 words. The people vote on a set of predetermined punishments from a fixed schedule. The vote must be overwhelming, e.g. more than just a handful of votes.

Basically a court of law... Could that be the answer?

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Disagree. There is a very limited supply of posts worth upvoting, and those that are should be favored on an ongoing basis by their fans.

OK, then I will keep being a faithful 'fan' of my few alt accounts. :)

'Diminishing returns' wouldn't prevent you from upvoting some loyal friends but made it less profitable (but still possible!) to do that very often (for example several times per day, like a little @haejin) ...

I have nothing against upvoting friends but I would like to reward the effort to see beyond one's own nose from time to time and seek, read and reward something new (that's how for example new users could get integrated into the community and new friendships could be built).

I very much like the idea of not having the negativity of flags, but I agree there should be a mechanism to punish or remove those who abuse the system.

That exactly could be also a possible task of a committee: to act against flags given for personal reasons or disagreement on opinion. (There are several options: for example a committee which decides about already given flags or a committee which is itself the only entity on Blurt allowed to flag).

Could that be the answer?

Lol, I like to be the initiator of discussions by contributing some general thoughts, ideas and opinions, but as a very lazy person most of the time prefer others to work out the details. :-)))
(However, one thing is for sure: as long as people like @haejin are making profit, they don't care about anything else, and be it a "place of public shaming".)

  ·  4 years ago  ·   (edited)

@jaki01

I am going to try to implement your suggestion about the voting window in hard fork 2. No promises, and it is an experiment. I'm also going to ask the community if anybody is opposed to this experiment, and I have to tell you that I may not actually be able to change it easily and it might not make it into hard fork two.

Speaking for myself and myself only, I definitely agree with your point of view on the 5-minute voting window. It basically encourages the use of automated tools for voting which overall I don't think is desirable.

Interestingly, I get @birdinc's point of view on self voting.

I don't necessarily agree with it, but I certainly understand where the sentiment is coming from. I guess that I probably fall closer to your point of view.

And I should also tell you that I found whale shares quite interesting, it does away with content rewards entirely and replaces it with tipping. Basically you have whalestake which is analogous to steam power, and your whalestake inflates and you have to log in once per day to claim your peace of the inflation pool otherwise it goes to a development fund.

When you make your claim, you can choose between putting your claim in a tip jar, and putting your claim directly into your own whalestake again kind of like your steem power.

Additionally, I should say that I have thought of censorship committees as well, or like duration committees or what have you, but I don't think that they're going to come to be on blurt.

That could change of course but I think that blurt is pretty much a very open product because of how we did the air drop right We let everybody in except for the company steemit.

In fact and just to be very straight with you, probably a lot of people that we should not have let in.

Either very nasty and destructive types, or people who had been using steem and steem identities to commit fraud.

When this is how we got the phrase

"Blurt loves everyone!..... Except steemit, inc"

Back to 40 votes and a maximum voting power of 1 Dollar resulting in more than 40 votes could end some bad habits here I think.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

nothing against upvoting friends

I'm not talking about upvoting friends, I'm talking about curating for profit, which has been an accepted role since day one. Why should someone be "punished" for upping exactly what they deem worthwhile content with diminished returns? Doesn't make sense, isn't fair.

The upshot is, in order to prevent the serious abuse you keep mentioning, curators-for-profit would constantly have to find different content that simply isn't there. In the last consequence that would be the death of curation, pretty much.

Your idea works only for people like yourself, i.e. someone who blogs and curates. I could say I don't care, because I'm mostly blogging. But I do, because it puts those at a disadvantage, who are my loyal followers. Without their contributions I might as well go to Facebook, where I have to publish for free but get more eyeballs faster.

prefer others to work out the details

Yes, I for one am not here to right the wrongs of the world. Others are not only more versed in those matters, but unlike me they actually enjoy dealing with them. Who am I to take away their fun by solving the issues for them? There's nothing wrong with having an opinion and explaining it in the most generic outline, as opposed to a full-fledged proposition. So I guess, I'm a "very lazy person" just like you ;-)

they don't care about anything else, and be it a "place of public shaming"

They will, if it also matters how often an abuser has been dragged there, along the lines of "three strikes and you're out". Like every justice system, it would have to be nuanced in order to be fair. I never said it was easy.

  ·  4 years ago  ·   (edited)

Why should someone be "punished" for upping exactly what they deem worthwhile content with diminished returns?

Right, why should that be punished? And especially, who would want to punish it? :)

In the last consequence that would be the death of curation, pretty much. ... But I do, because it puts those at a disadvantage, who are my loyal followers

I think these are completely wrong assumptions.

Diminishing returns would only have a strong effect on those who upvoted other accounts very frequently. If you upvoted for example your friends (or your 'precious content creator buddies') lets say thrice a week, there wouldn't be any (or a very small) effect on curation and author rewards. If however, you played a little @haejin, and created ten short posts per day to upvote them yourself, the effect would be rather strong (how strong depended on the configured parameters of the formula) - rightly so!

Already now your voting power gets less when you vote a lot, and recovers when you stop. The same would apply for the effect of diminishing returns.

One other interesting aspect is that it would affect flagging, too: if someone flagged anybody not once but very often to take all their rewards, the consecutive flags would become weaker and weaker ...

By the way, even on STEEM I find quite some interesting posts if I keep searching. I think it's worth it to try to find some new authors from time to time, and stick with my opinion that it's a good idea to reward the attempt to spread one's votes on as many (good) different authors as possible (but no, it is not necessary/forced, even not with diminishing returns).

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

precious content creator buddies

You're very negative about this somehow. I don't understand this.

I for example frequently upvote an Italian painter (@armandosodano), about daily. This man is producing beautiful art, and spices up his art posts with ample photos and neat texts, often historical context. I have learned a lot from him and really enjoy his stuff. Why should I vote for somebody else?

He also happens to like my paintings, although I suspect it's more a teacher's encouragement for an eager student. In any event, I can't see anything wrong with us being "buddies" as you put it. Oh yeah, I always vote for my wife. I have to live with the woman, so may I be excused please?

there wouldn't be any (or a very small) effect on curation

O. K., I can live with that. Compromise sold. I take the hit on daily Armando, if he ever comes to Blurt. He won't have to, since I can't post more than every 3, 4 days or so. BTW, the diminishing flags are interesting, but that doesn't really apply here.

find quite some interesting posts if I keep searching

I don't search. My feeds are full of them. Unfortunately my investment is not large enough to spread around very much. I vote 50%+, that's not that much to go around, and only on Hive. I'm nobody on Steem and Blurt, and generously distribute 100% votes of next to nothing, but that doesn't help anybody.

If I may ask, you upvoted your own comment. What's the reasoning there? Just curious.

  ·  4 years ago  ·   (edited)

You're very negative about this somehow. I don't understand this.

No, but you corrected me when I wrote "friends", so as kind of a joke I tried to seek a more appropriate term. :)

I can't see anything wrong with us being "buddies" as you put it.

I neither.

Oh yeah, I always vote for my wife. I have to live with the woman, so may I be excused please?

Sure (and I also upvote my wife), but anyway: an algorithm doesn't accuse or excuse anybody.
Diminishing returns wouldn't 'forbid' anything ... but I just had to realize that my 27th upvote of my wife, my best friend, buddy or alt account would count somewhat less than my first upvote at the same day ... nothing really dramatic in my eyes. I just had to choose if I insisted to upvote my wife 27 times a day (with less and less rewards per upvote) or if I would think about to grant upvote number 27 to someone else. :-) I would be completely free, and it's not about moral, just about an incentive to spread my votes within the community - at least to a certain degree.

I take the hit on daily Armando, if he ever comes to Blurt.

And maybe he actually would profit from the fact that also other users (not only you) would think about to spread their upvotes, too. That means that Armando would possibly receive my upvote number 27th from time to time (which until now had been reserved for my wife). :)

If I may ask, you upvoted your own comment. What's the reasoning there?

To earn money? :)
Here are neither flags nor diminishing returns implemented, that means self- and circle-voting are highly appreciated.
Yes, I urge to change that (because I think that in the long run that would be much better for all invstors!), but as long as nobody changes it, I see no reason to let all rewards go to Korean mini posts, and simply claim my part of the cake.
I am not an angel but an investor with self-interests ...
(OK, and as these rewards are only pennies when converted, I admit that my self-voting is also a way to hint at the obvious problem: in a functioning society there would be anybody/any means to curb that ...)

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

self- and circle-voting are highly appreciated

That's just weird. I mean, to worry about deincentivising destructive behavior with diminishing returns, which supposedly have only a tiny impact, and at the same time condoning self voting.

You see, I don't have a problem with anybody wasting their VP however they see fit, even on themselves - as long as the respective post has a modicum of value. Others do. Now I'm confused, but at least I'm confused on much higher level than before ;-)

Don't worry about answering; not much Sunday left. Thanks for the exchange; it was informative.

  ·  4 years ago  ·   (edited)

When living in the jungle, to survive you have to adapt to the laws of the jungle ... that doesn't necessarily mean that you prefer to live in a jungle.

Have a nice evening! :)

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

That's not nice!

You could be involved in the development of alternative instruments (other than downvotes and non-linear curves) that prevent or curb abuse.

The founders and developers of BLURT invest a lot of idealism and a lot of time of their lives in this.

I also bring a lot of idealism with me.

Sabotage, which you are doing, is the very wrong way here!

When living in the jungle, to survive you have to adapt to the laws of the jungle ... that doesn't necessarily mean that you prefer to live in a jungle.

This reasoning contains no ethics.

I also live offline in a "jungle". But I don't do all the bad things just because I'm not punished for them.

I am very disappointed.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Beantwortet an anderer Stelle.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Can you stop sounding racist?

I am no Korean or related. I am an African but I have read you refer to a particular set of people/country in multiple comments/posts.

It sounds really racist and toxic even if the people you refer to are from the countries you mention.

I suggest you speak about individuals rather than their country or race.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Nice to see you again ! You made some very valuable points.

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Test

  ·  4 years ago  ·  

Schau mal hier:
https://blocks.blurtwallet.com/#/@double-u
Der funzt total schnell.
Außerdem steht dort, vor wie viel Minuten etwas stattfand.

Der ist zurzeit viel besser als der hier:
https://blurtblocks.com/#/explorer/@double-u