Rewards have been a concern for some users. We weren't sure that it would fix itself, but it does seem to be fixing itself.
So:
What say you: do we move to linear anyway, or should I just close / defer the move to linear rewards and stay with convergent linear?
Cheers!
-@baabeetaa and @jacobgadikian
Dear @jacobgadikian,
my opinion is, a vote with a certain power (value) should always leave the same value, no matter if there is already a value on the post or comment or not.
This existing horrible curve has led to a situation where only a few users vote for comments. This is not good for communication and the community.
Now not exactly on the subject yet:
The reward for a vote should also always be completely independent of when the vote was left. I find all such complexities very superfluous.
As protection against bots: 0 to 5 minutes cut of authors and curators rewards. After 5 minutes to 6 days always the same value of the vote, no matter which strong votes came before or after.
Thank you for your interest!
I like the existing curve as it makes self-voting less beneficial.
A platform without flags plus a linear rewards curve would be a pure self-vote paradise. :)
Let's see what we can do about that....
At this point I have just written the following to @jacobgadikian above:
"The problem with the self-votes should be solved in another way, not in a way that my vote leaves only half value on comments, which were mostly not already highly voted.
There are other and better solutions against too many self-votes.
It is a very bad idea to solve this problem with this hated curve. I guess @jaki01 is the only one who loves it. This destroys communication in the community. I have a lot of experience with voting for comments. My site is on Steem and HIVE 77 times the most commented site at this day and 10 times the most commented site this week. This curve is, besides the sale of Steemit, the biggest trouble for all users."
Edit: @jaki01, you also know that there are other and better solutions. If you notice that you seem to have influence here, please mention things that you know bother the majority of users and not just what bothers you. I maintain that the majority does not want the fucking curve.
In which way?
I guess not, otherwise it would not have been introduced. :)
Only if you expect high rewards for every word you say. However, I like to communicate with my friends in real life even without getting anything for opening my mouth. :)
Apart from that, comment-voting often has the advantage that nobody else has already voted (automatically) so that one doesn't need to share the curation rewards with many other (very fast) users.
Looking at my curation rewards in SteemWorld, it seems that comment-voting in practice is actually rather beneficial.
The self-upvote of the comment above would have been even stronger with a linear rewards curve ... think about that ...
I can only tell you, from week 30/2019 I have been looking for newcomers and have been doing a weekly post to get them a bit more attention. After the introduction of the convergent curve (and in combination with the free downvotes) newcomers had a much harder time, many were gone faster than they came.
I think right now at the start of a new chain the price for this curve is high.
Do we have currently the problem that large accounts are splitting up into many small accounts? This is the main reason for the convergent curve, the reduction of self-votes is only a side effect.
That's what I observe on STEEM since four years ...
However, If bigger accounts support small users, like for example in the "Kneipe", then they will stay (independently of the curve).
And that's why I also disagree with the 'staking theory' of @birdinc: if big accounts just 'stake' (self- or circle vote), there is no reason at all for other, smaller users to join such a self-centered microcosm - and as we all know: the value of a (social) network is measured among others by the number of its users.
I disagree here. Without flags it's even more important than before.
There is another interesting reason in favour of the convergent linear rewards curve: in a linear universe bots could simply spread their votes randomnly without having any disadvantage. With the curve it's worth to vote on posts which other users like too. This effect is getting even more significant in case there won't be a curation window anymore (like for example @double-u prefers), which for now is the other reason not to upvote just randomnly ...
A lot of people talk past each other here.
(Deutsch: Viele reden hier aneinander vorbei.)
So do you two. Jaki, your statements have many contradictions.
I won't say more here. I'd rather write a post about it.
I agree on the point with the bots and of course there are other reasons as you wrote before. As someone said, it's like a small tablecloth, if you pull on one end you expose the other side.
We will see how it goes on, thanks for your point of view.
Who knows the Kneipe?
The term "Kneipe" refers to the periodically appearing posting, a virtual pub of the same name, in which @double-u votes for almost every comment, no matter how trivial it is. This is a good success in the German community. The institution has a very connecting character for bloggers and even newcomers can write themselves into a community very fast.
A lot of people talk past each other here.
(Deutsch: Viele reden hier aneinander vorbei.)
So do you two. Jaki, your statements have many contradictions.
I won't say more here. I'd rather write a post about it.
I never are in favour or against things because the majority prefers/dislikes them (anyway, a few German users aren't automatically the majority) but because I myself come to the conclusion that they are 'good' or 'bad'.
(In history many people who didn't agree with the majority - for example because they insisted that the earth isn't flat - got huge problems, which didn't change the fact that they were just completely right.)
Interesting. Seems to me that there two clear camps:
One is very interested in the simplicity of linear rewards and II camp links convergent linear because it is not as friendly to self voters.
I am trying to figure out the curation window thing. My opinion there is that it should not exist at all. Vote is a vote is a vote is a vote.
The problem with the self-votes should be solved in another way, not in a way that my vote leaves only half value on comments, which were mostly not already highly voted.
There are other and better solutions against too many self-votes.
It is a very bad idea to solve this problem with this hated curve. I guess @jaki01 is the only one who loves it. This destroys communication in the community. I have a lot of experience with voting for comments. My site is on Steem and HIVE 77 times the most commented site at this day and 10 times the most commented site this week. This curve is, besides the sale of Steemit, the biggest trouble for all users.
Oh, that makes me happy! I agree with you exactly. The value of the vote remains the value of the vote, no matter when the vote is cast. It shouldn't even matter if there are strong votes afterwards or not.
agree, vote value is vote value no matter when or what value the post has at time of vote. always keep things simple i.e. transparent as possible
Bravo! I second that.
I second this as well
Me too :-)
Well suggested. Agreed.
Concerning that I agree.
If there has to be a curation window at all, it should be very large, so that it wasn't easy to determine when upvotes would lead to maximal curation rewards.
There shall be no effect on when a vote was placed and which votes came before or will come after. Just make things simple.
The convergent linear curve on steem ensures that low rated posts receive fewer rewards. That means my vote on a not yet voted comment or post can be up to 50% lower.
Is this what we are talking about?
In my opinion a vote should always have the same value, so we should have no such curve. I have already written an article about this on Steem.
I like your idea. Every user should be able to vote with the same value, regardless of his BP.
One vote = 1 Blurt ;)
Yes it's a revolutionary turnover of the system. I love revolutions.
Haha ... He didn't mean it that way, my dear ;-)
My opinion:
The recent reward curve is a robbery of rewards and a hit in the face of bloggers and curators. Please go back to the linear curve! @jaki01 is very clever but wrong in this case. There is not one argument not to change to the blogger friendly linear curve. This is the opinion of the most bloggers. To stop selfvotes is very easy. Just scratch this possibility from the blockchain code. There is no need to fiddle on the reward curve to stop selfvoting.
Exactly, the linear curve is perceived by many as fair, which is very important for a good mood and motivation.
Jepp!
Bravo!
I fully agree with @double-u. There was already a lot of unrest on Steem when it was introduced. In the end the big stakeholders were helped and the small account was even worse. Not that this will become the same topic here again. I feel that I am being treated very fairly and that would be a step backwards for Blurt.
I'm sure we'll switch to linear in future, here I have written a Post in german.
A side effect of the convergent curve, people buy votes to get into the linear range. These vendors are growing and making things what you see here possible.
All the best for the upcoming HF2.
Better wait and see how things develop with convergent linear ;)
I think so we need wait for something more.
That's great news. Like a giant economic engine slowly waking up.
If it's the miserable curve of Steem's HF21/22 that we're talking about, it would be good if it disappeared. Guess/hope it's some other curve we're talking about.
Thank you for participating in the conversation.
Yes, it is probably exactly that curve that you're talking about. A lot of blurt not all of it, but a lot of it, is basically everything from steem prior to hard fork 23.
The original concept was to get as close to that as possible. Actually, that was probably a mistake and we probably should have deviated more liberally but luckily we can evolve over time.
I guess for now it's my preference to keep convergent linear, because @baabeetaa and @jaki01 are fans, and more importantly, it is what we already have in place, and it seems to be kicking in. I'm very interested actually in this entire kicking in process. I will admit that like many others, I simply thought that it was broken but I was wrong.
So I am quite interested to see what happens with it.
The reason why convergent linear was introduced was because large accounts had split into many small ones. So these many small accounts could vote for each other without being noticed.
The price for the curve was new and small accounts, also the comments decreased rapidly. That was also the point when I considered leaving Steem.
The big question is basically, is there currently the problem described above? And is it really so big or cannot be solved in any other way? Is it worth the price, to punish all the small accounts and communication via comments.
It is the investor's curve. One of the changes wich makes it easy for me to leave the Steem. This curve wasn't done for real bloggers. It was done for farming workers and circle-jerkers.
Oh @jaki01, you have done something with your endorsement of the curve, which is not necessary. Almost everyone hates this curve except you!
Lol, three or four German users != "Almost everyone". :-)
At SocialGraph, we believe in gathering data and user feedback. So, Blurt HF2 is going to continue convergent linear.
Zapata is going to launch with linear.
Let's watch the chain, listen to users, and later, develop an ideal solution.
Sure! Anyway, being in favour of convergent linear doesn't mean I wouldn't respect another decison. :)